The "Word of Faith": False Gospel, False Faith & False Teachers — Part 1

Introduction

Having been incensed by heretical statements I’ve read from some “Prosperity Gospel” preachers about the Gospel, about God, about faith and about Jesus Christ, I felt it was time for me to call a spade a spade, point out some of these false-teachings and begin what will be an irregular series of posts on the Word of Faith movement, its false gospel, its false concept of faith and a few of its false teachers.

Some resources I found helpful while researching this movement are listed below.

• WHAT’S WRONG WITH THE WORD FAITH MOVEMENT? (PART ONE), by Hank Hanegraaff
• WHAT’S WRONG WITH THE WORD FAITH MOVEMENT? (PART TWO): THE TEACHINGS OF KENNETH COPELAND, by Hank Hanegraaff
• Christianity In Crisis: 21st Century Ed., by Hank Hanegraaff
• misc. articles and essays at Equip.org: http://www.equip.org/categories/word-faith-movement

Fred Price

This first post is aimed at Fred Price. The so-called “apostle”, and former pastor of Crenshaw Christian Center in California, is well known as perhaps the most prominent black prosperity gospel preacher. He holds a Bach. of Biblical Studies, MDiv, DMin and PhD all from Friends International Christian University (a school offering “degrees” not accredited or recognized by the US Secretary of Education: http://72.167.81.150/accreditation.htm ). He has recently been lauded as an “apostle” and, though his credentials are suspect, though his teaching is blasphemous and unbiblical, his influence is a serious matter.

Here are some samples of some of his heresy along with my short rebuttals on each point:

” If it be thy will or thy will be done — if you have to say that, then you’re calling God a fool.”
(“Ever Increasing Faith”, TBN, November 16, 1990)

According to Fred Price, then, a real Apostle, James, foolishly instructs Christians under the inspiration of the Spirit of God,

” Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go into such and such a town and spend a year there and trade and make a profit”–  yet you do not know what tomorrow will bring. What is your life? For you are a mist that appears for a little time and then vanishes.  Instead you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we will live and do this or that.”  As it is, you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil.”  (Jam 4:13-16 ESV)

Amazingly, some Word of Faith (WoF) proponents will respond, “James writes, ‘If the Lord wills,’ but I already know what God wills because He tells us in places like Psalm 35:27 that He “takes pleasure in the prosperity of his servant” and in Matthew 7:11 that if earthly fathers know how to give good gifts to their children, “how much more will your Father who is in heaven”? But although there are no passages in Scripture that explicitly promise that God only wants material prosperity for His children, James is explicit that the Christian should not ever arrogantly presume to know what God wants but should always pray, “If the Lord wills…” Who should we trust? The explicit words of God in the Bible? or the frail logic and inferences of Word of Faith teachers? In other words, the Bible says to pray, “If the Lord wills…” but Fred Price says, “…If you say that, then you’re calling God a fool.” Since a heresy is a deliberate choice to depart from the standard teaching of the Bible according to historic Christianity, Fred Price is a heretic when he says, “…If you have to say that, then you’re calling God a fool.”

So the Apostle James is a fool for writing James 4:13-16; the Holy Spirit is a fool by the same standard for inspiring James to write what he did… but would Fred Price say that Jesus Himself was a fool for actually praying that way?

“And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, saying, “My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will.”” (Mat 26:39 ESV)

Fred Price’s way of solving the problem of Jesus’ own example, it appears, is to discredit Jesus at the time He prayed that way:

“Somewhere between the time He was nailed to the cross and when He was in the Garden of Gethsemane–somewhere in there–He died spiritually. Personally, I believe it was while He was in the garden.”  (Frederick K. C. Price, Identification #3. Inglewood, CA: Ever Increasing Faith Ministries, 1980. Tape #FP545, side 1.)*

Does the Bible give any indication anywhere that Jesus died spiritually before the cross? (In fact, does the Bible anywhere say that Jesus died spiritually?) No. Fred Price made this up.  In John 19:28, Jesus said he was thirsty, “to fulfill the Scripture”. Why would He care about fulfilling Scripture if He was already spiritually dead? He wouldn’t. Was Jesus dead spiritually when, in Luke 23:43, Jesus promised the thief on the cross that he would be with Him in Paradise? Or a few verses later in Luke 23:46, when He entrusted His spirit to the Father? No. Fred Price made this up—I think because that way Price can discredit Jesus’ own example of how to pray in order to hang on to his “positive confession”/name-it-and-claim-it heresy. Ironically, Fred Price teaches that the Church, the Body of Christ, has authority to do in this world what Christ Himself has no authority to do:

“God can’t do anything in this earth realm except what we, the body of Christ, allows Him to do.”
(“Ever Increasing Faith”, TBN, May 1, 1992)

Fred Price teaches that God is not sovereign—He is not Lord of Heaven and Earth. Sovereignty is defined by Webster as, “supreme power… freedom from external control… controlling influence”.  So who has ultimate authority in this world? The Church? or God?

“The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by man,  25 nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything.”  (Act 17:24-25 ESV)

God is “Lord of heaven and earth”—He needs nothing, least of all our permission to act in the world!  “For “the earth is the Lord’s, and the fullness thereof.”” (1Co 10:26 ESV) It all belongs to God. [There is…]  “one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.” (Eph 4:6 ESV) He is “over all”—that is, He is sovereign, ruling over every detail, whatever is included in the word, “all”.

“he who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords,  16 who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen.”  (1Ti 6:15-16 ESV)

Not only is God “Sovereign”, not o
nly is He King over all kings and Lord over all lords, but His total dominion is unending. The same attribute of sovereignty is ascribed to Christ:  “He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power.” (Heb 1:3 ESV) The Universe itself exists and continues, in every minute detail, by the will and power of God the Son. So the Apostle Paul prayed, “by God’s will” (Romans 1:10) and “If the Lord wills” (1 Corinthians 4:19) and “if the Lord permits” (1 Corinthians 16:7). Even unbelievers do bad things, says the Bible, because of God’s will and purpose (Revelation 17:17; Acts 3:17-18). Fred Price wants a God who will obey him, not the other way around. His pride and sin is the same as that of the Antichrist described in 2 Thessalonians 2:4, who exalts himself above God; like the king of Babylon in Isaiah 14:14, who lusts to “make himself like the Most High”; like the prince of Tyre in Ezekiel 28:2 who thought of himself as a god but who was judged by God,

“…your heart has become proud in your wealth–  6 therefore thus says the Lord GOD: Because you make your heart like the heart of a god,  7 therefore, behold, I will bring foreigners upon you, the most ruthless of the nations; and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of your wisdom and defile your splendor.  8 They shall thrust you down into the pit, and you shall die the death of the slain in the heart of the seas.  9 Will you still say, ‘I am a god,’ in the presence of those who kill you, though you are but a man, and no god, in the hands of those who slay you?  10 You shall die the death of the uncircumcised by the hand of foreigners; for I have spoken, declares the Lord GOD.””  (Eze 28:5-10 ESV)

God alone is Sovereign; though God does delegate authority to the Church of Christ, that authority remains delegated authority under the will and sovereign rule of God. Fred Price is a heretic and a mere man, apparently in direct rebellion against the Most High God. For not only does Price deny the sovereignty of God, but also other basic attributes of God, His omniscience and omnipresence:

“What makes you think the Holy Ghost wants to live inside of a body where He can’t see out through the windows and He can’t hear with the ears? What makes you think the Holy Spirit wants to live inside of a physical body where the limbs and the organs and the cells do not function right? You don’t want to live in a house with a leaky roof. You don’t want to live in a house where the toilets are running over on the floor. You don’t want to live in a run-down, broken-down house where the electricity doesn’t work and the wires are hanging out of the wall. You’ll get it fixed because you say this house can’t function rightly unless everything is functioning as it was designed to function. How do you think, then, that God can get the glory out of your body when your body is the temple where God lives and what makes you think He wants to live in a temple where He can’t see out of the eyes, and He can’t walk with the feet, and He can’t move with the hand ? Because the only hands He has in the earth realm are the hands that are in the body. The only eyes that He has that are in the earth realm are the eyes that are in the body. If He can’t see out of them then God’s gonna be limited. He’s not going to be helped.” (“Is God Glorified Through Sickness?”, Tape #FP605)*

Fred Price’s god is not God. His god is not all-powerful; his god is not all-knowing; his god is not everywhere-present—his god is “limited” and dependent on you and me. And Fred Price’s god is not in control:

“Yes! You are in control! So, if man has control, who no longer has it? God.” (“Prayer: Do You Know What Prayer Is?”, The Word Study Bible, 1990, Page 1178)

 

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* I’m grateful to Let Us Reason Ministries for their published research from which some of these quotes were taken (http://www.letusreason.org/wf27.htm).

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Comments

Original comments are posted at the bottom of this page. In order to adequately respond to Teena’s comment below, I’m including the full text of her comment followed by the same text with my responses interspersed.

Teena Ens

Joe, I have waited to respond to your article because I did not wish to do so out of anger. However, it doesn’t matter how many times I leave it and come back to it, it still upsets me.
You obviously do not agree with Fred Price on many points, but to call him a blasphemer and his teaching unbiblical and heresy is way out of line.
I do not think that you are qualified to make that judgement just because you have listened to a few 3 minute clips and read the writings of Hank “I don’t understand something, so I’ll make a ministry out of criticizing it” Hanegraaff!
I’ll only address your first quote from Dr. Price to show how you have taken his words out of context.
“If it be thy will or thy will be done — if you have to say that, then you’re calling God a fool.”
Fred Price is ONLY talking about situations where the will of God is known from His Word. If you see something in the Bible that clearly applies to your situation, and then you pray and say “if it’s your will Lord,” then that is foolish! Just because YOU do not see that certain things are promised to believers in the Bible or just because YOU believe that you can never know God’s will on anything does not make someone who sees it differently a heretic!
The passage in James is talking about someone who is leaving God out of their plans for their life and James is saying that person should stop and consider what God’s will is. James is not giving us a model of how to pray once we have determined what God’s will for us in specific situations. Many times we need to ask God what His will is for us but once we have sought the Lord on a situation or problem through His Word and prayer, we do not need to say “If it be your will.”
You ended your post by saying that “Fred Price’s god is not God. His god is not all-powerful; his god is not all-knowing; his god is not everywhere-present—his god is “limited” and dependent on you and me.”
Fred Price has never said or implied ANY such thing, this is merely the conclusion that you arrived at because you believe that God micro-manages every detail in the universe. You have taken little quotes that seemed to suit your criticism of a God-fearing, respected man of integrity.
Here is a real quote from Dr. Price:
“Predestination, as it appears in the Bible, has nothing to do with some arbitrary decision of who is going to hell….Predestination has to do with what those who do accept can look forward to. And because God knows who will accept His word, that doesn’t mean that He makes them accept it. He just knew that they would – or would not- because He is omniscient (all knowing), and so He has already made preparations for them.”
Obviously, you will not agree with Price’s doctrine (and mine) on predestination but it is clear that his God is God and his God is all-knowing and all-powerful etc. I can say this as someone who has listened for Dr. Price for about 16 years and I have also visited his church to see the impact of his ministry first hand.
Price’s teaching lines up with most non-calvinist teachers that believe that God has given some control in this earthly realm to humans. As people with free-will, we are responsible for our own actions and many times the consequenses of those act
ions, God is not “in control” of our sin, our weaknesses, or our ignorance and if we refuse what He is offering us, He will not force it on us. As Christians we are the body of Christ and God has, by His own soveriegn choice, decided to make us the vessels that He uses to accomplish things on this earth.
While you were in James chapter 4, perhaps you should have started reading a few verses earlier where James said, “Do not speak evil of one another, brethren. He who speaks evil of a brother and judges his brother, speaks evil of the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge. There is one Lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy. Who are you to judge another?” (verses 11 and 12)

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Joe Haynes

Teena,

I’m sorry for the long delay in responding to your post of three weeks ago. For some reason your post got flagged as spam, either by the site software or by another reader, and I just saw it for the first time last night while clearing out the last month worth of spam. My comments are interspersed with yours below (comments by Teena are in red, responses by Joe are in black).

Joe, I have waited to respond to your article because I did not wish to do so out of anger. However, it doesn’t matter how many times I leave it and come back to it, it still upsets me.
You obviously do not agree with Fred Price on many points, but to call him a blasphemer and his teaching unbiblical and heresy is way out of line.
I do not think that you are qualified to make that judgement just because you have listened to a few 3 minute clips and read the writings of Hank “I don’t understand something, so I’ll make a ministry out of criticizing it” Hanegraaff!

I’m sorry that you are upset by what I’ve written. I know you admire Fred Price. But as much as it upsets you, it is not out of line for me to call him a blasphemer when he blasphemes or a heretic when he teaches things directly contrary to Scripture. What makes me qualified to evaluate Price’s teaching is not how much of his stuff I have listened to or read, but the fact that I possess a Bible and am able to study it and compare Price’s teaching with Scripture. This if fact was what the Jews in Berea were commended for doing when they were hearing two real apostles, Paul and Silas, preach to them:

“11 Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so.” (Act 17:11 ESV)

Unfortunately, while the Bereans ended up believing the message of the apostles, I have concluded that some things Price has said and written deserve the labels “heretical” and “blasphemous”. Moreover, I have a duty to exercise my gifts and calling for the sake of defending sound doctrine and preaching the Word. My calling to do so is not something I alone have imagined, but a calling that has been confirmed by my denomination and by the churches whom I have served as a pastor. To ignore such false teaching, and not take a stand against it would be to be disobedient. As Paul charges Timothy,

” 3 As I urged you when I was going to Macedonia, remain at Ephesus so that you may charge certain persons not to teach any different doctrine,  4 nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies, which promote speculations rather than the stewardship from God that is by faith.  5 The aim of our charge is love that issues from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.  6 Certain persons, by swerving from these, have wandered away into vain discussion,  7 desiring to be teachers of the law, without understanding either what they are saying or the things about which they make confident assertions.”  (1Ti 1:3-7 ESV)

Continuing in verse 18, Paul adds:

“18 This charge I entrust to you, Timothy, my child, in accordance with the prophecies previously made about you, that by them you may wage the good warfare,  19 holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting this, some have made shipwreck of their faith,  20 among whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.”  (1Ti 1:18-20 ESV)

It’s my prayer that by confronting prosperity theology, including Price’s teaching, some who read this blog will “learn not to blaspheme” and instead, “wage the good warfare, holding faith and a good conscience.”

I find it unbecoming that you in your last sentence above sink to treating Hanegraaff with the same unfair criticism of which you wrongly accuse me. Hanegraaff’s book is exceedingly well researched. The false doctrines taught by the likes of Hinn, Copeland, Hagin, Price, etc., are documented and a thorough bibliography provides a great deal of additional research material. I highly doubt that you have researched Hanegraaff as well as he researched Price et al. What proof can you offer to substantiate your claim that he built his ministry to criticize what he doesn’t understand?

I’ll only address your first quote from Dr. Price to show how you have taken his words out of context.
“If it be thy will or thy will be done — if you have to say that, then you’re calling God a fool.”
Fred Price is ONLY talking about situations where the will of God is known from His Word. If you see something in the Bible that clearly applies to your situation, and then you pray and say “if it’s your will Lord,” then that is foolish! Just because YOU do not see that certain things are promised to believers in the Bible or just because YOU believe that you can never know God’s will on anything does not make someone who sees it differently a heretic!

The real question here is not whether I am in the right to call Price a heretic simply because I interpret the Bible a little differently than he does. And no, I do not believe I “can never know God’s will on anything”.  God’s will is explicitly made known on a variety of subjects. Romans 12:2 instructs believers to discern the will of God; 1 Thessalonians 4:3 says that it is God’s will for believers to be sanctified; 1 Thessalonians 5:12-18 provides a list of good conduct for believers which is God’s will for them; Hebrews 10:32-36 says it is the will of God for believers to endure great suffering and hardship while steadfastly remaining confident in God. The Bible says a great deal about what God’s will is on various topics. The real question here is, a) does the Bible teach believers to pray “if it be Thy will” or “Thy will be done”? and b) does Fred Price oppose Scripture on this point?

The difference between Fred Price’s teaching and the Bible’s teaching on prayer is the difference between a spoiled child demanding things from God and a humble child petitioning God. The Bible speaks of prayer in terms of petition and supplication, not in terms of demands brought to God about the things He supposedly promised.

“praying at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints,” (Eph 6:18 ESV)

” do not be anxious about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God.” (Phi 4:6 ESV)

In his pamphlet, “What Every Believer Should Know About Prayer”, Price admits he used to pray, “If it be Thy will” thinking it was a humble thing to do, but that he now knows better:
that to pray like this is “a badge of doubt”. He even says, “If you put, ‘If it be,’ on the end of a petition prayer, it will not be answered.” And because the prayer Jesus’ taught us includes the words, “your will be done”, Price has objected that “I believe the ‘Lord’s Prayer’ is not for Christians today.” These additional quotes clarify that when Price says “you’re calling God a fool” to pray “if it be your will”, Price is speaking in generalities, not, as you suggest, “ONLY talking about situations where the will of God is known”.

The problem is that Jesus Himself prayed “if it be your will” and explicitly taught His followers to do the same. So who do we believe? Fred Price or Jesus Christ? That’s why it is heresy for Price to teach what he does about prayer: it directly contradicts what the Bible says about prayer.

The passage in James is talking about someone who is leaving God out of their plans for their life and James is saying that person should stop and consider what God’s will is. James is not giving us a model of how to pray once we have determined what God’s will for us in specific situations. Many times we need to ask God what His will is for us but once we have sought the Lord on a situation or problem through His Word and prayer, we do not need to say “If it be your will.”

So it sounds like you are saying that believers should first seek to know what God’s will is and then second, having done that, pray without saying “If it be your will”. But the people James is talking to, in James 4:13-16, are Christians—he calls them “brothers” in verse 11 and specifically instructs them, in verse 15, to say “If the Lord wills…” implying that they know the Lord and are open to correction on how to pray to Him. You will notice in this passage that James does not instruct someone to stop and consider what is God’s will (though that too is biblical, c.f. Rom 12). You wish it said that, but wishing does not make it so. The passage is not vague; it is explicit: Christian brothers, businessmen, pray like this—“If the Lord wills…” Why? Because the whole passage is not, as you suggest, about including God in your plans, but about submitting to God’s sovereignty: verse 7, “Submit yourselves therefore to God.” Verse 10, “Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will exalt you.” These businessmen, in verse 13f, are commanded to conduct their business prayerfully, remembering that God rules over every detail and their profits, or losses, will be according to His will just as their lives, no more significant than mist when compared to God’s rule over the Universe, are in His hands.

You ended your post by saying that “Fred Price’s god is not God. His god is not all-powerful; his god is not all-knowing; his god is not everywhere-present—his god is “limited” and dependent on you and me.”
Fred Price has never said or implied ANY such thing, this is merely the conclusion that you arrived at because you believe that God micro-manages every detail in the universe. You have taken little quotes that seemed to suit your criticism of a God-fearing, respected man of integrity.
Here is a real quote from Dr. Price:

I did not merely arrive at the conclusion that Price believes in a non-sovereign, non-omnipotent, non-omniscient, non-omnipresent God “because I believe that God micro-manages every detail in the universe”. I arrived at that conclusion because Fred Price said so. I said first that Price’s god is not sovereign because he said,

“God can’t do anything in this earth realm except what we, the body of Christ, allows Him to do.”
(“Ever Increasing Faith”, TBN, May 1, 1992)

I then said Price’s god is not God (meaning omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent) because he said,

“Because the only hands He has in the earth realm are the hands that are in the body. The only eyes that He has that are in the earth realm are the eyes that are in the body. If He can’t see out of them then God’s gonna be limited. He’s not going to be helped.” (“Is God Glorified Through Sickness?”, Tape #FP605)

and,

“Yes! You are in control! So, if man has control, who no longer has it? God.” (“Prayer: Do You Know What Prayer Is?”, The Word Study Bible, 1990, Page 1178)

Your last sentence reads, “Here is a real quote from Dr. Price”, implying that the things I’ve quoted from him are not “real quotes”. So are these statements by Price actually things he didn’t say? Or are they completely out of context (like that one excerpt ABC News played of Price saying some outrageous things that were actually out of context)? To show that it is not out of context to conclude that Price’s god is not the Sovereign God of the Bible, let me give you the context of the last quote above, from his article in The Word Study Bible:

“Now this is a shocker! But God has to be given permission to work in this earth realm on behalf of man… Yes! You are in control! So, if man has control, who no longer has it? God… When God gave Adam dominion, that meant God no longer had dominion. So, God cannot do anything in this earth unless we let Him. And the way we let Him or give Him permission is through prayer” (Ibid.)

It would appear, then, that Price has indeed said such a thing as you deny. If God is not in control; if God no longer has dominion; if God cannot do anything unless we let Him; if God needs our permission (all of which Prices claims) then God would be limited—i.e., He would not be God.

“Predestination, as it appears in the Bible, has nothing to do with some arbitrary decision of who is going to hell….Predestination has to do with what those who do accept can look forward to. And because God knows who will accept His word, that doesn’t mean that He makes them accept it. He just knew that they would – or would not- because He is omniscient (all knowing), and so He has already made preparations for them.”

So “predestination, as it appears in the Bible, has nothing to do with some arbitrary decision of who is going to hell… Predestination has to do with what those who do accept can look forward to”? You brought up this quote by Price on predestination because you stated that the only reason I concluded that Price’s god is limited is because of my belief in sovereign predestination. But as you can see above, it was because of Price’s own words that I reached that conclusion. Nonetheless, your quote from him on predestination serves as a good example of how false-teachers like him make a claim of what the Bible says or means without actually proving from the Bible that their assertions are true.

Price said, “predestination, as it appears in the Bible…” Therefore, let’s take every instance of the word “predestine” (and it’s conjugations) and see what the context is to see if Price is right. The Greek word, proorizo (from the prefix “pro” meaning “beforehand” and the verb “orizo” meaning “to determine”) appears in these verses:

• “for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel,  28 to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined ng> to take place.”  (Act 4:27-28 ESV)
• “29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.  30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.”  (Rom 8:29-30 ESV)
• ” 6 Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away.  7 But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory.”  (1Co 2:6-7 ESV)
• ” 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love  5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,”  (Eph 1:4-5 ESV)
• “6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.  7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,  8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight  9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ  10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.  11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,  12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.  13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,  14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.”  (Eph 1:6-14 ESV)”  (Eph 1:6-11 ESV)

The Acts 4 passage is not about what believers can look forward to but about what the Romans and the Jews did to Jesus when they crucified Him—It was Jesus’ death by crucifixion and every detail performed by the Jews and Romans leading up to that, which is included in the words “whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place”.

The Romans 8 passage is partly about what believers can look forward to (glorification) but the certainty of this hope is rooted in more than that: that God has predestined every person  whom He has chosen to be “conformed to the image of His Son” by being also “called” and “justified”. In particular this passage is saying that in our present suffering and groaning (vv 21-23) believers can be assured of the final outcome since “all things” (meaning every minute detail in history) “work together for good for those who are called according to his purpose” (v 28) and that purpose is our predestined conformity to the image of God’s Son (v 29). In other words, predestination in Romans 8 is about more than what believer “can look forward to”—it also includes everything leading up to that blessed future.

The 1 Corinthians 2 passage speaks of two kinds of wisdom: the one in verse 7, God’s wisdom, predestined before the ages for our glory (namely the eternal plan of salvation God accomplished through “Christ and Him crucified”, verse 2); the other in verse 6, a worldly wisdom belonging to earthly rulers who are “doomed to pass away” (Greek, “being abolished”). This actually implies that God has an eternal, predestined plan in mind, to accomplish our glory through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus, and to accomplish the abolition of earthly rulers who oppose Him. Again, though the context, especially in verse 9, tells of what believers can expect in the future, the verb “predestined” refers to more than that, to God’s wise plan which included “Christ and Him crucified”.

The Ephesians 1 passages are closely related though I listed them separately since the word “predestined” occurs twice. Verse 5 speaks of being predestined “for adoption”; verse 11 speaks of being predestined to obtain “an inheritance”—so there is some truth again to Price’s claim that “predestination” has to do with what believers can expect. But again we find, as with all the other occurrences of the word proorizo, that there is more being predestined than just our blessed future. Verse 4 says that God “chose us in [Christ] before the foundation of the world”. The word “chose” of course is plain: it means that God selected us by His own free will. And for what purpose? Verse 4 continues, “that we should be holy and blameless before Him.” This means that there are people whom God “chose” to be “holy and blameless” and there are people, conversely, whom God did not choose to be holy and blameless. For those whom He did so choose, verse 5 goes on to say that He accomplished what He before time chose to do by “in love” predestining us “for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ”. Which of course entails that God was in sovereign control of everything necessary to accomplish His plan to adopt us. The phrase “through Jesus Christ” is also part of what He predestined to happen—which truth is taught in Acts 4, Romans 8 and 1 Corinthians 2: that God’s predestined plan included not only the suffering, death and resurrection of Christ, but also the rebellion, plotting, wicked intentions and murder committed by the Jews and Romans who crucified Christ (c.f. Acts 4:27-28).

Not only then does Fred Price, in your quote above, make a false statement about predestination in the Bible, but he contradicts the plain conclusion of the Bible that  ” [God] has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. ” (Rom 9:18 ESV)

Obviously, you will not agree with Price’s doctrine (and mine) on predestination but it is clear that his God is God and his God is all-knowing and all-powerful etc. I can say this as someone who has listened for Dr. Price for about 16 years and I have also visited his church to see the impact of his ministry first hand.

Unfortunately you’re right: I do not agree with your understanding of predestination. But even more unfortunately, you are wrong: it is not clear that Price’s god is God. And I’m afraid that a character reference from you does not prove anything except that you admire Fred Price. The facts remain that Price’s own words leave the inescapable conclusion that he denies the sovereign, infinite, omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient God revealed in the Bible. You have not given me any reason to reconsider the accuracy of the quotes I’ve used from Price or the accuracy of my evaluation of him as a heretic and blasphemer.

Price’s teaching lines up with most non-calvinist teachers that believe that God has given some control in this earthly realm to humans. As people with free-will, we are responsible for our own actions and many times the consequenses of those actions, God is not “in control” of our sin, our weaknesses, or our ignorance and if we refuse what He is offering us, He will not force it on us. As Christians we are the body of Christ and God has, by His own soveriegn choice, decided to make us the vessels that He uses to accomplish things on this earth.

Sadly, Price’s teachings do not line up with “most non-calvinist
teachers” on anything besides his view of predestination. The prosperity theology teaching, the limited view of God, the dependence of God on human permission to act, the view that Jesus was possessed by Satan in Gethsemane, the view that Jesus accomplished atonement spiritually in Hell—these are cultic heresies not shared by most Christian teachers, Calvinistic or Arminian.

On the subject of “free will” and election, I have answered your assertions in another thread (http://historicism.com/blog/?p=224#comments) and in this post (http://historicism.com/blog/?p=231). But your belief that unsaved people have “free will”, and that “God is not ‘in control’ of our sin, our weaknesses, or our ignorance and if we refuse what He is offering us, He will not force it on us” are nice-sounding beliefs, but they do not line up with the Bible. Yes, the Bible teaches that humans are morally responsible creatures. Yes, the Bible teaches that God is sovereign, unaffected by any other outside will or influence in accomplishing His purposes. Yes, it is hard to completely get one’s head around how both those things can be true. But since both truths are taught in the Bible, it is our duty to believe both of these truths, even when they are hard to understand and reconcile.

” And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him,  16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.  17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability.  18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.”  (2Pe 3:15-18 ESV)

While you were in James chapter 4, perhaps you should have started reading a few verses earlier where James said, “Do not speak evil of one another, brethren. He who speaks evil of a brother and judges his brother, speaks evil of the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge. There is one Lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy. Who are you to judge another?” (verses 11 and 12)

The exhortations from James 4:11-12 are appreciated. James is coming back to his early warnings against pride and arrogance, and I know I have to guard my heart from these things—especially when confronting false teaching in another. Having said that, James is referring to slander when he warns of speaking “evil” of a brother. He is not condemning Christians from confronting evil or false teaching when they find it in the Church. Otherwise, he would seem to have a very short and hypocritical memory when 4 verses later he renders the verdict, “As it is, you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil.” Rather than tolerate evil, false teaching or habitual sin in the Church and in the lives of fellow Christians, we are exhorted in the Bible to “judge” those who claim to be Christians. Not “judge” in the sense of rendering a decisive and final verdict of their standing before God—that is God’s prerogative alone. But “judge” in the sense of evaluating and discerning the words and actions of fellow Christians for the purpose of correcting, training in righteousness and protecting sound doctrine.

” 9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people–  10 not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world.  11 But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler–not even to eat with such a one.  12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge?  13 God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.””  (1Co 5:9-13 ESV)

Therefore, having evaluated some claims by Fred Price about what the Bible teaches, and doing so, like the Bereans did in Acts 17:11, I have found that the things he says are not so. But I encourage you, if you still want to be in submission to the authority of God’s Word, if you are still humble enough to let the Spirit teach you through the Bible, then be like a Berean yourself. Don’t just take my word for it.

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